Posts by Marvin Shilmer

114

Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?

by Viviane in

several times over the past few months i have had conversations, both here and in real life, with religious people making all sorts of interesting and conflicting claims.

i like to know how things work, so generally i will ask questions to net out what i am being told and see if it can be explained and make sense.. for instance, if someone said 2+2=4 and i asked how, there are a variety of ways that could be shown to me, a number line, physical objects being put together, counting on fingers and toes, etc.

indeed, in my personal life, i often have to explain how certain technologies work, sometimes planned, sometimes off the cuff, from a variety of group sizes to a varying degree of technical expertise.

Marvin Shilmer

Why can't religious people simply say "I don't know"? What is wrong with that level of honesty? Why all the claims to know stuff and, when caught NOT knowing any of that stuff, the insults, the subject changing, the pretend answers?

What you observe is disorder and disruption of rational thought process.

I've come to this conclusion: religion is a contagious disease.

That said, and since most here have history with the Watchtower religion supposedly based on biblical text, I have an observation of my own: the biblical depiction of Jesus is not of a person who taught a religion but, rather, of a person who taught a way of living.

20

What are the Witnesses Afraid Of ?

by Sour Grapes in

jw
friends

if the witnesses have the truth and have been going to meetings for many years and every week they learn how to be effective in the ministry and learn about the bible on sundays and every week have a family worship night, why are they afraid to talk to anyone who doesn't agree with them or question their beliefs?

if they have the truth then nothing can refute it.

the truth is the truth.

Marvin Shilmer

- As asserted by the Watchtower organization “apostate” is constructed as a theology to protect those who follow Watchtower from exposure that would interfere with the religion’s dominance over its followers.

- As accepted by active Jehovah’s Witnesses “apostate” is an excuse to disengage from reasoning that threatens preferential belief.

29

Is there a Child Molester on the Governing Body?

by TTATTelder in

great report by abc on the abuses in jw-dot-org land.... i hope it opens a "floodgate" of future news reports and exposes.

if you ask yourself, "why hasn't the watchtower leadership changed their policy on the 2 witness rule?

if one or more persons on the gb has victims out there that can't come forward because of the 2 witness rule, then that would explain the permanent road block to policy change that is obviously in place.

Marvin Shilmer

I think the main issue is not the two-witness rule but, rather, Watchtower's failure to encourage that allegations of child molestation be reported to secular authorities by either the victim themselves or the victim's parent or guardian. It's one thing to tell victims/parents/guardians they have an absolute right to report allegations to secular authorities, and it's something else entirely to encourage that this be done.

Otherwise the two-witness rule is essentially the same concept secular law uses for prosecution, only secular law does not ply the term "two witnesses" like Watchtower does. The two-witness rule is something used internally by Watchtower demanding that allegations must have corroboration over and beyond an allegation. Secular law requires corroboration too. Corroboration does not require two human beings be present for and observe an act of molestation, with the victim being one of the "witnesses". In Watchtower's case, the two-witness policy is one requiring corroboration, and corroboration should be required in order to convict a person (in JW speak: disfellowship) of such a crime. Potentially even circumstantial evidence could establish corroboration, but it would have to be precise so that no alternative was left other than guilt of the alleged molestation.

That said, to me the primary issue at stake is Watchtower's failure to actually encourage that allegation of child molestation should be reported to secular law enforcement by anyone with reason to believe the report could be true. If Watchtower is concerned about breaching ecclesiastical privilege it could at least take the step of encouraging that victims/parents/guardians should report the matter to secular authorities. There is no excuse for failing to do the latter. None at all. This failure is, to me, at the very least immoral.

5

Trolley Dollies (Again) - With Sadness

by Joe Grundy in

at 9.00 am, saturday 14 march i was in the town centre of cheltenham, gloucestershire, uk.

a beautiful town with fine architecture.. feeling replete after a full 'english breakfast' and generally happy with life, i waited outside a bank, smoking a contemplative cigarette, whilst mu friend carried out his bank business.

there were some fine women out and about.. across the square, i noticed (no-one else seemed to) two jw literature carts.

Marvin Shilmer

"1) The WTBTS needs to keep JWs too busy to think for themselves and doing something that they can brag about..."

That's pretty what Watchtower's president gave as the reason why all the activity it compels JWs to engage in.

See: Why the unrelenting pressure for more and more organized religious activity?

91

ABC's report on child abuse

by Joyzabel in

nice job!

Marvin Shilmer

Sorry folks. Couldn't help myself...

91

ABC's report on child abuse

by Joyzabel in

nice job!

Marvin Shilmer

Just took a look at that jwtalk.net discussion. Lots of head-in-sand burying. Some of them will probably wake up one day only to learn they've let themselves become followers of men.

Not to change the subject, but this was my first introduction to jwtalk.net. The subject matter (what is and is not discussed there) is very telling. I noticed an admission that the Branch had indirectly asked its owners to remove certain topics for discussion. The owners apparently followed these men. And there's the 800-lb gorilla.

17

Watchtower's deception regarding blood transfusions

by Rufus T. Firefly in

you also ask why one can be dis-fellowshipped for taking a blood transfusion but not for taking blood fractions.

while both may affect the life of an individual, the expression "life-sustaining" in connection with blood transfusions is synonymous with the idea of taking in food for nourishment.

in this regard both whole blood and major components of it carry nutrients, oxygen, and other nourishment to the body.

Marvin Shilmer

This will allow them to undo the policy without actually undoing it.

I think your assessment is correct. I don't think Watchtower is worried about potential civil lawsuits or criminal prosecution related to its position on blood.

I've often read ex-JWs opine that Watchtower would end its blood taboo were it not for fear of lawsuits. Yet to this day I've yet to see anyone express a legal argument supporting such an opinion. The position Watchtower holds is a religious one which essentially means it can relax it to allow blood transfusion in a heartbeat without fear of serious civil lawsuits.

My view is that Watchtower has resisted relaxing its religious position to allow blood transfusion in order to protect its religious viability rather than its legal position. The fallout would be enormous were Watchtower to suddenly change its blood taboo to allow wholesale transfusion of blood. On the other hand, Watchtower in effect does let JWs make wholesale use of the donor blood supply but it's done so with such convolution that JWs use massively from the blood supply yet think they abstain from blood. (See: Over 96% Accept 99%! )

17

Watchtower's deception regarding blood transfusions

by Rufus T. Firefly in

you also ask why one can be dis-fellowshipped for taking a blood transfusion but not for taking blood fractions.

while both may affect the life of an individual, the expression "life-sustaining" in connection with blood transfusions is synonymous with the idea of taking in food for nourishment.

in this regard both whole blood and major components of it carry nutrients, oxygen, and other nourishment to the body.

Marvin Shilmer

Is that because you have the benefit of looking back and not having to look at as tragic outcome?

Many times I've witnessed individuals express non-regret for previously holding a moral position against accepting transfusion of blood. In each case the sentiment was expressed on grounds of morality, meaning they held no regret for once holding a position they now know is errant because at the time they honestly held the position.

I've also witnessed individuals express non-regret because they believe in their particular case it led to a better standard of care.

17

Watchtower's deception regarding blood transfusions

by Rufus T. Firefly in

you also ask why one can be dis-fellowshipped for taking a blood transfusion but not for taking blood fractions.

while both may affect the life of an individual, the expression "life-sustaining" in connection with blood transfusions is synonymous with the idea of taking in food for nourishment.

in this regard both whole blood and major components of it carry nutrients, oxygen, and other nourishment to the body.

Marvin Shilmer

The thing that continues to stir me on this subject is the utter contempt Watchtower officials demonstrate toward its own membership when they ask learned and precise questions. The disrespect for factual information accompanied with questions leaves me speechless. The religion's leadership has no moral or ethical compass.

17

Watchtower's deception regarding blood transfusions

by Rufus T. Firefly in

you also ask why one can be dis-fellowshipped for taking a blood transfusion but not for taking blood fractions.

while both may affect the life of an individual, the expression "life-sustaining" in connection with blood transfusions is synonymous with the idea of taking in food for nourishment.

in this regard both whole blood and major components of it carry nutrients, oxygen, and other nourishment to the body.

Marvin Shilmer

"There is something now called a "letter of understanding" ...it was used ..."

Here: Letter of Understanding